Memory Beta:Pages for deletion/Doctor Who
This is a page to discuss the suggestion to delete " ". *If you are suggesting a page for deletion, add your initial rationale to the section "Deletion rationale". *To vote simply add "Delete", "Keep", "Neutral". *If you want to discuss this suggestion, add comments to the section "Discussion". *If a consensus has been reached, an admin will explain the final decision in the section "Admin resolution". In all cases, please make sure to read and understand the deletion policy before editing this page. Deletion rationale This is a page about the Doctor Who franchise. This wiki is focused on the Star Trek and we have not created a page for other franchises like this before. In past precedent, we deleted Buffy the Vampire Slayer because that science fiction franchise was tangentially (not explicitly or specifically) referenced in a licensed Star Trek work. The consensus in that decision was that the writers/creators/owners of Star Trek had not explicitly negotiated or promoted a crossover with Buffy, thereby making the details of that reference insufficient to be verified as valid info. Now, Doctor Who has crossed over with Star Trek and this page was created as a hub for info about the Doctor Who franchise as it relates to Star Trek. This is a new kind of page and the precedent set here will determine in the DC Comics universe and Marvel Comics universe are also deserving of such hub articles about those similar franchises that have also crossed over with Star Trek (in a valid source, licensed capacity). Very clearly - the votes here are to determine consensus of users if this kind of page is valid and desirable for the wiki. -- Captain MKB 16:51, June 5, 2012 (UTC) Votes *''abstain'' -- Captain MKB 16:51, June 5, 2012 (UTC) ** change vote to delete -- Captain MKB 14:20, July 12, 2012 (UTC) *''Keep'' and Yes to pages for cross-over franchises and Yes to pages for other franchises -- BadCatMan 04:28, June 6, 2012 (UTC) *Keep'' and I'm ok with pages for other franchises as long as they have solid connections (like Dr Who, Legion of Superheroes, X-men, etc.) to licensed Trek. --TardisCaptain 21:26, June 6, 2012 (UTC) *''Keep'' as a franchise that has an official cross over with Star Trek, it should have a page giving (at least brief and relevant) details. Geek Mythology (talk) 20:17, July 15, 2012 (UTC) Discussion Just preambling, we've already discussed this topic at what is now Memory Beta:Pages for deletion/Doctor Who/pre-release and were in favour. I'm not sure why the same, unchanged page has to go through two deletion discussions based on the same issue. We can only repeat much of our previous discussion, minus the side-issue of Assimilation²'s pre-release nature (I'd argue for this even if Assimilation² never existed). I'd like to direct interested readers there first for some background. I will be repeating some topics. First, the so-called precedent. On the Buffy the Vampire Page page, as I see it, it's two deletion votes and no discussion, and an inconclusive Talk page are not sufficient precedent or consensus for this much more detailed topic. We already have a better precedent in Star Trek within Star Trek, as a real-world perspective page that details a list of references to some real-world unnamed 20th century entertainment within canon and licensed Star Trek sources. The Doctor Who page is also its own precedent: its been here for over 5 years and had a dozen editors, and passed unremarked upon, and even added to, for all that time. Now, let's lay out the proposal as I see it: a real-world perspective page that collects and details all references, in-jokes, name-drops, cameo appearances (named and unnamed), shared authors, and yes, even outright cross-overs, from a non–''Star Trek'' franchise, as they appear in Trek canon and licensed sources. This should have a brief summary of the other franchise for context, and information should be framed in the perspective of the Trek franchise. It should show how this other franchise relates to Star Trek. I'm not proposing this for every little thing that gets a name-drop or in-joke. I haven't seen the Buffy the Vampire Page page, but it seems to have been based on only one tenuous connection to a minor Buffy character (i.e., Maggie Erickson). That's far too little compared to what we have at Doctor Who, which is is a bigger, different, and more solidly detailed matter. This should only be for things that have a significant number of references, as here. How do I define significant? If it has an official cross-over, then certainly, but that doesn't have to be a requirement. Hofstadter and co. from The Big Bang Theory: three names from one source, so I'd say no to a The Big Bang Theory page. Battlestar Galactica: Ishmael, Ghost Ship, and Reap the Whirlwind make vague references, so it's kind of borderline. James Bond: this is apparently referenced in at least five sources (1, 2 (here), 3, 4, 5 (here), so I think this is a good candidate for a page about its franchise. Doctor Who has over a dozen references and a cross-over, so definitely. Coming from a major, well-known franchise is also a factor to consider. Obviously what qualifies as an explicit reference or a significant number of them is a judgment call for us editors, but here we can afford to be accepting. Specifically to official cross-overs, I believe there is merit in having a page to introduce what the cross-over franchise is. A Trek fan may not be familiar with, say, the Legion of Super-Heroes, what they're about, where they came from (in the real world), and why they're significant. That information, especially real-world, is not adequately provided on that page, and may not appear, fit or be appropriate on the source page Star Trek—Legion of Super-Heroes. Heading off to Google or Wikipedia or a DC wikia to research them may be rather daunting. A brief summary on a DC comics universe (Superman, Batman, Legion, etc) page on Memory Beta is therefore a very handy starting point. In addition, a cross-over franchise has briefly come under the umbrella of the Star Trek franchise, so it behooves us to acknowledge that as a part of Star Trek. Pages such as this one are very useful. It collects all these odd references in one place rather than them being scattered across the wiki. As soon as Assimilation² was announced, fans on forums were wondering about the connections between Doctor Who and Star Trek, whether one treated the other as fictional or "real", and so on. I directed some fans from a Who forum here. People want to know how the franchises relate and intersect. If someone has heard about some old Star Trek novel where Doctor Who was watched or the Doctor made a cameo appearance, then they can come straight here to this page to find out about it, and then maybe even find and read the novel. They should be able to do the same with The X-Men and its whopping three official cross-overs, and the Legion of Super-Heroes. They also should be able to do it with Battlestar Galactica, Star Wars, James Bond, and so on, if we find enough references to warrant them, even if not cross-overs. So it's useful, fun, and of interest to other fandoms, fans of both franchises, and even authors looking to make such references or write cross-overs. It also helps this wiki build connections with other wikis, franchises, and fandoms, rather than existing in isolation. Memory Alpha, our big sister wiki whose example we usually follow, already has a hugely detailed page. Other wikias do similar pages, the only difference being that their authors are freer with pop culture references: the TARDIS Index File has three such pages for Star Trek alone — Star Trek, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek (franchise); while the Stargate Wiki has a Star Trek page as well. Clearly these other wikis and enough of their editors have found the idea of having pages for related franchises to be useful and relevant. I say Memory Beta needs to catch up and should adapt and evolve to follow good trends like these. -- BadCatMan 04:28, June 6, 2012 (UTC) Solid connection Ok so my vote to the second part of the question is Yes if there is a solid connection to the licensed works of Star Trek. IMHO a solid connection is the official crossovers (to my knowledge that would currently be X-Men, Legion of Superheroes and Doctor Who). In one of the Star Trek Vanguard novels, the character of Diego Reyes was given several books to read while he was being transported to prison. The plot to one of these books "Escape from Zeta Minor" came directly from "Unchained Woman" which is an episode of the 1979 TV series "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century". I would consider this not to be a solid connection and I would not vote for having a "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century" entry on Memory-Beta. I'd would post a note in the entry for "Escape from Zeta Minor" mentioning the connection, but that's about it. Thoughts? --TardisCaptain 21:41, June 6, 2012 (UTC) :Of course, I agree, that example is very tenuous. Was that similarity noted in the novel? Anyway, we already have a Buck Rogers page such things might be mentioned on. -- BadCatMan 04:04, June 7, 2012 (UTC) ::The scope of this discussion is to vote on the validity of actual crossovers, not implied joke references. The only explicitly established crossovers we are taking on here are Dr. Who, DC Universe, and Marvel Universe. -- Captain MKB 11:59, June 7, 2012 (UTC) Conclusion So we have a majority in favour. :D Would anyone else like to weigh in? Or can we call this done, accept the page (again!) and accept similar pages for other franchises? -- BadCatMan (talk) 01:34, August 20, 2012 (UTC) I think we're done. Is it okay if I archive this and clean the page myself? -- BadCatMan (talk) 04:56, August 28, 2012 (UTC) :No, please wait for an administrator to close the discussion. -- Captain MKB 16:18, August 28, 2012 (UTC) Admin resolution :The consensus on this is a fairly clear keep, so... kept and closing. -- sulfur (talk) 16:52, August 28, 2012 (UTC)